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 Post subject: DC contactor rating & pedal conduit
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am
Posts: 44
Location: St. Cloud State University
Hello again!
Our drive motor is rated at around 100-130A continuous w/ 325 A max.
Our fuse is going to be 325A.
For the DC contactors will a 225A continuous rating with 600A inrush be acceptable?
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/Relays_24812.asp (DC contactor)

Also, for the pedal, it requires a 72V wire running to it (fused at 6 amps). Therefore, for the entire wiring harness (of 5 wires total) will I have to protect it with orange conduit? Or just put the conduit over any of the wiring that has the 72V wire in it?

Thank you


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:32 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois Tech
Rules document page 53 (62 of the pdf):

"There will be no HV connections or wiring in the cockpit area, behind the instrument panel or any cockpit switch, control panel or pedal control.
All controls, indicators and data acquisition connections must be isolated using optical isolation, transformers or the equivalent.
Electronic throttle or regen controls carrying high voltage must be mounted away from the cockpit area and actuated through non-conductive or well-grounded mechanical linkages."

So I would say that orange conduit will not suffice.

As far as the contactor goes I would say that it would be safer to go with something that can break the full load current of the motor like the EV200 from Tyco Electronics. I don't know how much the contactor you found costs but I think that if you call the kilovac factory they might be willing to give you a discount since it is a school project. On the other hand you could contact the manufacturer of the contactor you found and ask for the maximum break current that the contactor can handle.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:25 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am
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Location: St. Cloud State University
What i'm probably going to need is a mechanical pedal drive by cable (in the cockpit) that activates the potentiometer somewhere not in the cockpit? That shouldn't be too bad, it'll also likely cut down on some wiring going across the car.
Although, it might be dangerous to have some kind of pedal control outside of the cockpit.

That contactor is $44 in the link. We were just denied support from a school funding source (which would have been around $1500) so at this point it sounds like either we need to fundraise again or start(continue) paying out of pocket.

The EV200 looked like it was more then capable for our car. Have you guys gotten discounts from the Kilovac factory? Or better yet, how much would I expect to pay for one? The $100-120 price I saw earlier really scared me.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
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Location: Illinois Tech
We did not pay anything for ours. The engineer at the kilovac factory send us a few relays for free after I mentioned that they would be used in a school project. I don't know if you will get the same treatment but I don't see a reason why not.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am
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Location: St. Cloud State University
Is Kilovac owned by Tyco? I'm having a hard time finding a website dedicated to Kilovact, just Tyco mainly.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
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Location: Illinois Tech
Yes Kilovac is part of Tyco. Here is a link http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/


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 Post subject: Re: DC contactor rating & pedal conduit
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am
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Location: St. Cloud State University
[quote="Colon_McCommander"]Hello again!

Also, for the pedal, it requires a 72V wire running to it (fused at 6 amps). Therefore, for the entire wiring harness (of 5 wires total) will I have to protect it with orange conduit? Or just put the conduit over any of the wiring that has the 72V wire in it?

Thank you[/quote]


I want to go back to this question, would it be allowed to run this 72V signal to the pedal if it was fused at something around 100mA or somethiong else pretty low?


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 Post subject: Re: DC contactor rating & pedal conduit
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:29 am
Posts: 117
Location: Texas A&M
Colon_McCommander wrote:
I want to go back to this question, would it be allowed to run this 72V signal to the pedal if it was fused at something around 100mA or somethiong else pretty low?


Quote:
"There will be no HV connections or wiring in the cockpit area, behind the instrument panel or any cockpit switch, control panel or pedal control.
All controls, indicators and data acquisition connections must be isolated using optical isolation, transformers or the equivalent.
Electronic throttle or regen controls carrying high voltage must be mounted away from the cockpit area and actuated through non-conductive or well-grounded mechanical linkages."


No, if it's above 30 volts (the cutoff between low and high voltage), it can't be in the dash or throttle pedal.

_________________
- Texas A&M 2009 FH Crew Chief
- 1st place FH '09: 981 pts


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
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Location: Illinois Tech
Please note that even if your signal is less than 30V (probably 0-12V or 0-5V for the pedal) if the ground you will use is the HV ground then the rules forbid it. Although last year I saw a couple of cars that had high voltage wiring going to the pedal area, I don't know however if they were allowed to run without modifications.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:56 am
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Location: St. Cloud State University
hmm, well it seems smart just to play it safe and keep the HV potentiometer in the back of he vehice (real close to the controller). That way it'll reduce wiring, be easier for the pedal designer, and allow us to run on the track (assuming everything else passes too).

Another question for you antaoant, when you called Kilovac; did you call the factory direct customer service and tell them you were working on a school project so they referred you to an engineer who sent you the free contactors?

Thanks again!


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
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Location: Illinois Tech
I called Kilovac directly and went through their phone menu and got their engineer that provides support for the contactors. That is the guy that send us the free contactors. I don't think I spoke to anyone else other than that particular guy at kilovac.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:05 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Rules Committee
On the throttle:
  • Don't count on any leniency on that rule. It's actually easier and cleaner to run a mechanical throttle cable than to run orange conduit anyway.
  • Don't mix HV and LV wiring in a conduit.
  • A 100 mA fuse won't reduce the shock hazard. 100 mA is plenty to be lethal.
On the contactor
  • I'm not sure if the the rules say so, but the contactor should have a continuous current rating equal to the fuse continuous current rating, and should be able to interrupt at least your peak expected current.
  • Also check the voltage rating of the contactor. That first one you listed (not the kilovac) had a rating of 48 V. OK if your bus is 48 V, but not if you are running 72 V. The current interrupting rating may also vary with voltage.
  • You said your drive motor is rated for 130 A continuous, maybe less, and 325 A peak, and that you were using a 325 A fuse. You could get away with a smaller fuse and thus smaller wire if you want to. You just need to be sure the fuse has adequate time delay to allow the peaks through. You might not want the smaller wire, because smaller wire has higher resistance, but for safety and rules you have that option.


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 Post subject: No same ground between LV and HV?
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
Location: Florida State University
Charlie wrote:
On the throttle:
  • Don't count on any leniency on that rule. It's actually easier and cleaner to run a mechanical throttle cable than to run orange conduit anyway.
  • Don't mix HV and LV wiring in a conduit.
  • A 100 mA fuse won't reduce the shock hazard. 100 mA is plenty to be lethal.
On the contactor
  • I'm not sure if the the rules say so, but the contactor should have a continuous current rating equal to the fuse continuous current rating, and should be able to interrupt at least your peak expected current.
  • Also check the voltage rating of the contactor. That first one you listed (not the kilovac) had a rating of 48 V. OK if your bus is 48 V, but not if you are running 72 V. The current interrupting rating may also vary with voltage.
  • You said your drive motor is rated for 130 A continuous, maybe less, and 325 A peak, and that you were using a 325 A fuse. You could get away with a smaller fuse and thus smaller wire if you want to. You just need to be sure the fuse has adequate time delay to allow the peaks through. You might not want the smaller wire, because smaller wire has higher resistance, but for safety and rules you have that option.


Hi, Charlie,

As Antoant said: " even if your signal in cockpit is less than 30V (probably 0-12V or 0-5V for the pedal) if the ground you will use is the HV ground then the rules forbid it. " is it true? does the rule clearly mention it?

Thanks,


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:05 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Rules Committee
The way the rules work for HV and low voltage is that the HV system must be completely isolated from the LV system. Any point in the HV system is considered high voltage. There is no such thing as a wire in the HV system that is guaranteed to be at a potential near ground, because the HV system is not grounded. So when the rules say
Quote:
There will be no HV connections or wiring in the cockpit area, behind the instrument panel or any cockpit switch, control panel or pedal control.

the "HV" in there means anything that is part of the HV system, as defined in Section 4.1.

The rules also say:
Quote:
All controls, indicators and data acquisition connections must be isolated using optical isolation, transformers or the equivalent.


I'd also suggest reading the "ELECTRICAL SAFETY RULE NOTES" from 2009. The first section in there explains this issue.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:59 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:50 pm
Posts: 78
Location: Illinois Tech
To clarify, when I say HV ground I mean the point that you use as reference for your HV circuits, and I am assuming that your HV and LV circuits are separte. I use "ground" to refer to the particular reference point because the documentation for a lot of the controllers that are on the market use that terminology. Of course most of those controllers are designed to be used on vehicles that all the circuits are tied to a single reference point.


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